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ConFuzzled Forums => Feedback => Topic started by: Athesis on June 03, 2013, 12:08:21

Title: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Athesis on June 03, 2013, 12:08:21
Hi,

CFz is a great convention, so many happy and joyful people here. Great organisation, best Fursuit Lounge I've ever seen!

There was just one thing that really disturbed me and even made me stop fursuiting: Headless Fursuiters. It ruined soo much for me to see headless Fursuiters everywhere for no reason...

I don't like a suggestion like that, but if so many fursuiters can't stick to the unwritten rules of Fursuiting, make it please a written rule next year: Keep your Head on unless it is really necessary to take it off.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Dasherskywere on June 03, 2013, 14:37:28
To be honest.....no :) its their fursuit, they paid for it or built it they can do what they wish with it :) i hate taking mine off but id rather take it off for a short while and get the normal funny "killing the magic!" comments meant as a joke then to keep it on and collapse or risk either damage to the suit, my self or someone else :)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Amethyst on June 03, 2013, 20:15:34
Same as above. If you're having trouble and you're a good walk from the Lounge or your with friends and want to talk, why not take it off?

If it were in the parade ( and a non-emergency) then I'd agree but otherwise, let them be.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Washu on June 03, 2013, 20:25:40
If I'm completely honest the well being of the suiter is more important than the magic - general speaking if you are overheating in suit then take your head off.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Hawker-Blue on June 03, 2013, 20:55:53
Magic V health. It was my first time suiting at this convention and i could easily understand why people would take their heads off (i more or less kept mine on)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Lost Cause on June 03, 2013, 21:57:56
I'd love to see security trying to enforce this...
What would they have to do? walk up to headless fursuiters and ask, "Are you dieing/dehydrated/overheated/sick or otherwise in some way impaired?
No?
Then put on your head or get out of the con!" XD

I mean really. Fursuiters do it because it is fun no? If you start dropping rules and regulations on their shoulders that are only for the benefit of others rather than the suiters how long will it remain fun?
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: RiffRaff on June 04, 2013, 01:58:42
I gotta be honest and blunt with this.

I am a fursuiter, my fursuit is very, very warm.
Considering this year was, much like last year, awesomely sunny weather, we suiters heated up a lot faster than usual.
So I took my head off.
Even if it was to fix my hair, or simply cool off.
I don't feel bad about it, and I don't care if it's "ruining magic"
Obviously I'd try and keep my head on if I was in a public place with kids running around and such,
But for a closed con like ConFuzzled, I'm not really fussed
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Shirik on June 04, 2013, 08:33:51
Obviously I'd try and keep my head on if I was in a public place with kids running around and such,
But for a closed con like ConFuzzled, I'm not really fussed


A hundred times THIS. We ALL know there are people in the costumes. Its not like we'e crushing the dreams of small children by taking off a head. There are dozens of reasons heads get removed - some heads have huge ornate horns which are HEAVY and can cause a lot of neck pain, some have electronics which may not be working, some may have poor ventilation or the suiter may be overheating, dehydrating, they have have hair in their eyes or their sweatband may have slipped down. There are literally TOO MANY REASONS to list for this.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Athesis on June 04, 2013, 10:34:11
I pay money to go to confuzzled. I try to get some fun at the convention. And if I go out - Especially in Suit - and there are only headless people - NOT VENTING or DEHYDRATING, but drinking lots of alcohol (something what dehydrates the body), that kills the fun.

I have absolutely no problem if someone takes off his head for, as I alredy said, medical issues. I don't even mind if you take it off for rearranging anything or venting. The convention space is quite huge, why do it in public? If you start overheating, why don't you go to the Fursuit Lounge where you get air and fresh drinks for free?

For me, public headless fursuiting does not ruin the magic, it ruins the complete convention along with all photos and video recordings.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: aurora on June 04, 2013, 11:16:03
On the issues of headless fursuiters I would take my head off in the fursuit lounge and leave it to dry while I cool off in front of the fans, then walk the short distance around the corner to my room to take a rest and change my balaclava, totally necessary. I almost took my head off in the queue for the laser photo-shoot it got that hot but I stayed calm and persevered. A few times in the queues I took my hand paws off to help cool down a little and I also took my RH hand paw off to facilitate the use of a camera as my paws are not very dexterous.

A fursuiter's well being must come first if it's getting unbearably hot they must take off their heads.

Late one evening outside I did see a fursuiter in full suit who had taken his head off to relax with a cigarette which I found rather amusing.  ;D
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Sparx on June 04, 2013, 11:33:07
I had been in suit for a good 6 or 7 hours that day (Sunday), non-stop without food and with only drink, after shooting a dance video I de-headed along with my 2 friends to chat to someone and then someone had the nerve to come up to us and tell us we were ruining their magic after we had just performed (in full suit of course) right in front of them. This was not an isolated incident as well, queuing for the lazer a photo-shoot (a 2 hour affair for some people), that queue was insanely hot and had we again not de-headed there, then I have no doubt that there would have been some form of medical incident with dehydration or over-heating, we were once again we were ruining the magic. It also reached my ears that numerous other suiters who were de-heading throughout the day had similar remarks made to them.

Now yes there is the fursuit lounge but this sometimes does not fit with what we as suiters want to do sometimes, we may want some proper food or to drink something other than water, we also may want to have a brief chat with friends while still going suiting after. In these cases it is wholly unjustified to expect us to run off to our rooms, de-suit, shower (after suiting you can feel absolutely disgusting if it's been hot), get re-dressed, run back to do whatever it is we wanted to do and then after that is done run all the way back to the room to get our suits back on.

Oh and just briefly addressing the point of ruining the videos and photos, the group who were bing intentionally loud and drinking alcohol did so in the evening and we stayed away from any planned main events. We also had several photographers stop us and ask for pictures and joined in on the joke.

So to try and summarise for those people who are inclined to cite TL:DR for every reply that is more than a sentence or two:
1. Fursuiters get hot!
2. Different suits have different fur thicknesses, will gain and retain heat at different levels and the people inside (yes there are people inside sadly) will also have different levels of being able to tolerate that heat
3. Sometimes the fursuit lounge, while the preferred solution, is not always the ideal solution
4. It's a convention, there is no-one there under the age of 18, we all know there is a person inside that suit
5. I could go on, but I honestly can't be arsed.....I mean really, just do some digging around and you'll find out there were far worse things that happened at this con.....someone cracking one off in the adult art section for example

Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Hawker-Blue on June 04, 2013, 11:42:18
I pay money to go to confuzzled.

We all pay money to go to Confuzzled. I think Sparx summed up perfectly why its not really viable to enforce a heads on rule at the next convention.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: aurora on June 04, 2013, 11:50:03
Quote
5. I could go on, but I honestly can't be arsed.....I mean really, just do some digging around and you'll find out there were far worse things that happened at this con.....someone cracking one off in the adult art section for example

OMG LoL!  ;D

I myself didn't go into that section as it doesn't interest me.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Mangusu on June 04, 2013, 13:25:11
"The Magic" Is a term created by the Disney theme park corporation. Its to describe the atmosphere they provide for the guests and mainly the children paying to see their grand show of a park. They treat their entire property as a show, their employees are called Cast Members. They're so dedicated that Magic Kingdom has a labyrinth of underground tunnels so they can secretly transport characters across the park and not have them seen in unfitting themed zones all to preserve the Magic.
And that's what the cast members are 'Paid' to do.

We're not paid actors at a convention. We all go to enjoy and socialize with others who share our enthusiasm for animal costumes.

As I was in the overflow hotel we needed to rely on friends to hold onto our suits. Sunday I was stuck in MonsteRoo for over 6 hours cause I had so many events to attend and no way to get back into the room where my change of clothes were. Even resorted to eating with half my top off.
Half the time I am too exhausted to be bothered put that head back on.

But I'll be honest, the other half of the time I just don't care.
Every fursuiter is not suddenly the convention's entertainment.
In fact I've been to many conventions where I wish some people weren't 'performing' But because the convention policies were more accepting of what was a -costume- you'd fine blatant fetish attire just roaming the halls. I applaud Confuzzled for having their solid policy for keeping that out of the main floors.

As far as I see it, if that head isn't on, I'm just wearing some colorful furry clothes and would rather not be bothered on what I garments I choose.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Flinty Paws on June 04, 2013, 15:37:15
This seems to be turning into a discussion rather than a feedback session.

As aggravating as it may be to some individuals seeing headless fursuiters, it is not possible for any convention to enforce a rule to keep their heads on. We all know you can get very hot and stuffy in suits, and forcing ourselves to keep them on to preserve the magic isn't necessarily a good idea.
Personally I try my best for those that don't like to see headless suiters. I'll try to go to the lounge, or pop my head off in the corner out of the way so fewer people will see, but ultimately, if we're too hot, then we have no choice. Sorry!
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Rwylin on June 04, 2013, 19:08:09
I pay money to go to confuzzled. I try to get some fun at the convention. And if I go out - Especially in Suit - and there are only headless people - NOT VENTING or DEHYDRATING, but drinking lots of alcohol (something what dehydrates the body), that kills the fun.

I have absolutely no problem if someone takes off his head for, as I alredy said, medical issues. I don't even mind if you take it off for rearranging anything or venting. The convention space is quite huge, why do it in public? If you start overheating, why don't you go to the Fursuit Lounge where you get air and fresh drinks for free?

For me, public headless fursuiting does not ruin the magic, it ruins the complete convention along with all photos and video recordings.

Your magic is not as important as someones health.
Security, Con staff ect are not going to go around telling suiters that they cannot take there heads off.
Also you agree with taking off head if they have a medical condition, how do you not know that all the suiters u saw do have a medical condition? or were on the verge of passing out from heat, dehydration, no food, to much drink ect.
If the con were to make this a written rule it would be to hard and to dangerous to inforce, it happens at every con so if u dont want to see headless suiters dont go to the con, we all pay to be there so the suiters have payed for the right to do as they please.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: James The Dog on June 04, 2013, 19:13:33
I admit I actually got myself feeling quite ill at one point because there was so much moaning about "ruining the magic" this year, I didn't dare take my head off outside of the lounge. I probably would have spent more time in suit if I felt I'd been able to take it off for a couple of minutes to cool off and buy a drink, rather than have to keep going back to the lounge.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: RizzoRattie on June 04, 2013, 19:27:31
Ultimately, at the end of the day, there is no hard or written rule about Fursuit Ettiquete, and it is down to the individual just how they wish to perform in their costume. Largely it will come down to just how that individual wishes their character to be seen.  Some people take their suit and personality very seriously and so removing the head is a huge no no. Others are just ther to enjoy the fun and escapism of suiting, and as such, taking the head off to then socialise seems perfectly fine within their viewpoint.  We of course cannot impose any restrictions on this, nor would we.  Ultimately, everyone is there to enjoy the convention in their own way, as long as it is in keeping with the rules.

Having been around in the community now since I was 18 (and I dare not tell you just how long ago that was!) I have seen many changes within the way people act in and perform in their fursuits, so it will continue to go through various life cycles.  There was a time NO one would tke their head off.  There was a time no one would lend their suit to another.  I think it is just a natural progression as more and more people get them, so will change the attitudes surrounding them.

On a fursuit note and to close my comment, some brilliant suiters this year! Really enjoyed seeing you all out and about, and thank you everyone that came along to the games, making it one of our most successful ever.

Also, 269 suiters in our parade!
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 04, 2013, 19:36:36
I personally feel that if you’re going to spend thousands on a fursuit, wear it. So so so many times have I seen people just randomly walking around holding their head so that they can talk or drink…
Of course, you’re not required to wear the suit at all times and 100% you should remove the issue if you’re having health problems. But please bear in mind also that some people, including myself find it rather silly to see people carrying fursuit heads around. It’s not really the point of having a nice suit.
At the end of the day, everyone feels different about it and value a fursuit in different ways. I have professional mascot experience and for me, keeping the illusion alive is a very important aspect for me.
As a 28 Year old, I would not like to see a character at Disney take his character head off randomly to smoke a fag ect or to talk to people, yet I know it’s a costume. The illusion is still the magic.
In a magician show, you know that it’s impossible for something to disappear into thin air, but done correctly, you will be amazed. And that is kind of the deal with costuming.
You’re all entitled to do as you please, but please also remember that some see this as kind of pointless. Especially if it’s just because xyz.
I see the very first step out of my hotel room door in costume as a performance.

Please just bear in mind that this in my own opinion and the way I feel.

Have a good day!
Tender Paws

Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 04, 2013, 19:47:53
Ultimately, at the end of the day, there is no hard or written rule about Fursuit Ettiquete, and it is down to the individual just how they wish to perform in their costume. Largely it will come down to just how that individual wishes their character to be seen.  Some people take their suit and personality very seriously and so removing the head is a huge no no. Others are just ther to enjoy the fun and escapism of suiting, and as such, taking the head off to then socialise seems perfectly fine within their viewpoint.  We of course cannot impose any restrictions on this, nor would we.  Ultimately, everyone is there to enjoy the convention in their own way, as long as it is in keeping with the rules.

Having been around in the community now since I was 18 (and I dare not tell you just how long ago that was!) I have seen many changes within the way people act in and perform in their fursuits, so it will continue to go through various life cycles.  There was a time NO one would tke their head off.  There was a time no one would lend their suit to another.  I think it is just a natural progression as more and more people get them, so will change the attitudes surrounding them.

On a fursuit note and to close my comment, some brilliant suiters this year! Really enjoyed seeing you all out and about, and thank you everyone that came along to the games, making it one of our most successful ever.

Also, 269 suiters in our parade!

Ditto, Taking the head off was something that, if you did it.. People would ask what was wrong years ago.
And yes! Some excellent suiters and performers this year!

Tender Paws
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Aurocard on June 04, 2013, 19:59:11
I know i'm a newbie to the con, but I'm no stranger to fursuiters or being in one. I've never had one of my own, but I had a friend who would lend me his head and paws a couple of times whenever we'd go out somewhere for a meet. And I have to say, despite it being a partial, the head and arm/paws got incredibly hot (California weather...huzzah). Every fur meet, we would all spend about two/three hours in our suits and then we'd go to take a break. If there were children around, we'd keep them on, then we'd go somewhere where we could take them off away from the children. However, if it got too hot, or if something occurred, the "Illusion" or the "magic"...or..what not...would not matter. People are more important than keeping up appearances.

At this con, which was the most incredible thing I had ever seen when it came to gathering furries....I saw people with heads off, with suits down to the waist, and you know what? It didn't matter to me. It was a very warm week, everyone needed to be comfortable, everyone needed to be healthy. If a written rule was put in place, I think it would put a LOT of people off, and those that still wanted to go to the con would feel a bit restricted when it comes to their own inner character being forced to remain on even when in the most uncomfortable situations.

Look on the bright side, everyone kept their suits on during the parade ;)

-Auro
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Snackcat on June 04, 2013, 22:01:05
I'm going to break the popular trend and say I am Pro-keeping your head on. I can't help but feel the whole "we know they're just people in suits" counter argument is missing the point a little. YES we know, but we like to forget that and imagine, I find a lot of people are also very brash and cold when defending taking off their heads. A lot of people at CF seem to have this "Don't give a damn" attitude, which goes against the fandom and its general outlook, the outlook it was founded on,

Here's my two cents on the matter.

I've chatted to several furs in America and I get the evidence that it's more strictly enforced over there, many people, both high up and low down respect the idea of keeping up the illusion, People such as Uncle Kage and other noteworthy furs teach this practice to people in "first con" panels and such. So if they can do it, and have (to my knowledge) never had any adverse problems, why can't we? Confuzzled is slowly becoming one of those major cons on par with AC and EF, let's try to be more like them in terms of respecting classic furry ideals.

The argument that people will get hot and tired? I think it's fairly easy to know when you need a break. I know from experience as a fursuiter that you can get carried away, but that's one reason we have handlers and spotters, also the fandom is full of helpful furs, a simple "fanning" or "time out" hand gesture can let people know you need help to the lounge.

As for the "We know" attitude, as I said, yes we DO know, but what's the point of reality if you can't pretend? I know the current generation of furs is more detached from the spiritual aspect of the fandom, but there are still many furs, greymuzzle or otherwise that are more classically minded, and do you really want to cause a friction in a fandom devoted to acceptance and co-operation? I say that not to threaten, but to warn.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: yagfox on June 04, 2013, 22:09:18
Heads on = performing.

Heads off = not.

I find people with heads on who are not making an effort to perform, far more irksome than those with heads off taking a breather or having a chat! :)

But I'm not going to force my views on anybody, do what you like and take from it what you want, I like to keep my head on and try to perform, because then loads of people take my picture and I feel speshul! ;)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Vector on June 04, 2013, 22:17:28
I can say that I've never seen so many headless fursuiters before this edition of CfZ.  >:(

It was kinda depressing to be surrounded by headless people when you try to perform....and you may think it doesn't ruin the magic, but it's ruined tons of pics & videos rushes for sure.

About the weather : it was very windy and not very warm (unlike last year or any other con like Eurofurence in summer) and inside the venue it was VERY cold.
In few words, PERFECT conditions for fursuiting.

A lot of new fursuiters attended this year for sure, but before performing get some training or don't wear it. A fursuit is not a mandatory to attend to a furry convention.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Bob Drake on June 04, 2013, 22:27:10
I'd never do it unless I was suddenly taken seriously ill, which has fortunately never happened yet! When I do see someone strolling around in public places with their head off, I'm not "disturbed" or horrified etc. It's just one of those things I wouldn't want to do. Also, on a completely practical level, when I take my head off I look like such a complete wreck with smeared eye makeup and plastered with sweat, with deep crinkles embedded in my flesh from the close-fitting head, I wouldn't want to appear in public looking like that!

Maybe part of the "problem" of headless fursuiters is connected with the idea that we are all supposed to be obligatory public entertainers and portray a character in a certain sort of way. Not every fursuiter is there strictly to entertain others. It's certainly a bonus if somebody likes my suit and enjoys looking at me in it, and I can certainly be a spontaneous show-off as anyone who has seen me at the dances can attest to. Personally I'm there in my fursuit because I enjoy it so much and love being a part of the whole thing, looking like a critter I've imagined all my life, and presume everyone else has their own reasons.

Interesting topic!
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Rwylin on June 04, 2013, 22:32:30
I can say that I've never seen so many headless fursuiters before this edition of CfZ.  >:(

It was kinda depressing to be surrounded by headless people when you try to perform....and you may think it doesn't ruin the magic, but it's ruined tons of pics & videos rushes for sure.

About the weather : it was very windy and not very warm (unlike last year or any other con like Eurofurence in summer) and inside the venue it was VERY cold.
In few words, PERFECT conditions for fursuiting.

A lot of new fursuiters attended this year for sure, but before performing get some training or don't wear it. A fursuit is not a mandatory to attend to a furry convention.

were u at the same con as it was bloody hot for me and alot of other people inside and out.....and i wasnt even in suit
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: djem on June 04, 2013, 22:39:08
Headless fursuiter ... big topic I gess, but it's a personal thing I would never walk around in public without a head, and if urgent, just try to find a small corner to do so, away from public view.

What I would say : if you are dead and sweating, I think it would be better to first get a shower before starting to have a drink at the bar ...
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Vector on June 04, 2013, 22:43:39
17°C to 19°C in the afternoon is not really hot with that really windy conditions. I was even shivering sometimes at the end of the day (in fursuit or not).  

I experimented at EF no wind & 25°C to 35°C : you really need to go to fursuit lounge frequently in these conditions.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Snow-wolf on June 04, 2013, 23:00:29
Actually the problem I see is not who is right or who is wrong but its cultural.

I talked to many dutch, french and german Furries, ALL of them agreed they didnt like the fursuiters that were walking around headless. (since I'm German, I share this pov, I'm sorry)
Then I actually also saw a lot opinions of british furs... and they ALL were fine with walking around headless.

So I guess there needs to be more understanding on both sides instead of blaming. I'm quite sure none of the two "sides" wants to be offensive... it's just different countries with different opinions.

Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Dhary Montecore on June 04, 2013, 23:38:17
Due to the obligations of my role on this convention, I am forced to splitt my reply to this into two seperate parts.

First, I'll answer officially for the security of ConFuzzled:

There can not and will not be a written rule, that a fursuiter may not take off his head in public. However, since a large number of attendees (suiters and non-suiters) felt geniuely disturbed by the unusually high amount of fursuiters that ran around headless without a valid reason, we will focus more on this point during beginner-panels and most likely there will be a guideline for fursuiters hanging out in the headless-lounges. Thank you for keeping this discussion polite!

Now I'd like to state my personal opinion. The following does NOT represent the opinion of ConFuzzled ltd. or any convention department!

Back in the days, there was this unwritten rule, that fursuiters never take their head off in public. That's why the headless-lounge is called headless-lounge. This is why there are rules, that allow fursuiters to run around without a badge. That's why we protect their anonymity. I'm a bit offended by people that play the "medical issue card" on this problem, since nobody would ever even get to the idea to deny someone with a medical problem (overheating, dehydration, etc.) taking his head off in public.

All the complaints were about people taking their head off without any reason at all. If you have a medical problem, you don't sit down at the bar and get drunk. Also you don't walk into the restaurant and eat a full meal in a half pulled-down fursuit. Or smoke in fursuit. That's just not what the majority of our community accepts. At many conventions, this would be softly enforced to be honest. I don't see a reason for a written rule about this, but I also don't understand those few suiters that seem to think of this to be perfectly fine. If many of those I spend a convention with tell me, they don't want to see that in public, isn't it a bit arrogant to say "I don't give a f***"? Sure as hell it should make you think.

One of the suggestions regarding the reason for such a unusual large number was, that we had a lot of first timers, and since we live in a time in which every beginner can afford at least a simple fursuit, many walked around without any experience or background knowledge.

I think that might be part of the reason. All I can say is, that in all my years at conventions I've never seen so many headless suiters in public. (Without medical reason :p) And yes, that ruined a lot of photos and videos, because you may not care how you look without your head on, but most suiters do and their photos will be ruined if there are headless suiters in the background.

Last but not least: of course it's your choice what you do with your fursuit, but the furry community is based on the "we", and not on the ego of a few.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Fairlight on June 04, 2013, 23:44:20
So I guess there needs to be more understanding on both sides instead of blaming. I'm quite sure none of the two "sides" wants to be offensive... it's just different countries with different opinions.

This. The UK is a place where "The Pub" is the only place where people can escape their usual strict social rule set. For many Brits a con is like going to the pub with good friends.

I have no doubt that any of the headless guys would have never have done that in the city centre. But they'd do it at the con for the same reason as a continental fur wouldn't have a problem losing the head when at home.

I had a similar debate earlier today about Kigus and why in the UK they're fine at some events where in continental Europe they'd be seen as unsuitable for the hotel/con.

For Brits, while at the con, this is as far as there concerned, their home that they share with some mates for a while.

At least that's what I think, knowing both Brits and Germans ^.^

A lot more people these days also talk in suit. Also a big no go not to long ago.

Personally I'd keep my head on at cons. But that's my choice to make, and someone else's is theirs to make. Fursuiters are there so they have fun. If you also have fun because of it, good, but it gives you no right to make demands.

Edit: That said, I agree with Dhary that we should try and "educate" in this case. I don't mind headless suiters, but I love a good con video as much as everyone, and headless guys in lots of shots are not ideal.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Athesis on June 04, 2013, 23:53:02
Thank you, Dhary - You hit absolutely the point I may was not able to say.

I would also add one of my thoughts about it: If there is a Fursuiter who has an 'real' medical issue, he maybe would not be recognized early enough to help him before he breaks down - It makes people more non-sensitive to help those who really need help. It is just another headless Fursuit ...


Edit:
@Fairlight
Kigu? This pyjama-animal witch you was wearing last night? I was absolutely fine with it - It was ment to be like this, so it  dosn't ruin anything.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Snackcat on June 05, 2013, 00:18:51
Due to the obligations of my role on this convention, I am forced to splitt my reply to this into two seperate parts.

First, I'll answer officially for the security of ConFuzzled:

There can not and will not be a written rule, that a fursuiter may not take off his head in public. However, since a large number of attendees (suiters an non-suiters) felt genuily disturbed by the unusually high amount of fursuiters we will focus more on this point during beginner-panels and most likely there will be a guideline for fursuiters hanging out in the headless-lounges. Thank you for keeping this discussion polite!


Now I'd like to state my personal opinion. The following does NOT represent the opinion of ConFuzzled ltd. or any convention department!

Back in the days, there was this unwritten rule, that fursuiters never take their head off in public. That's why the headless-lounge is called headless-lounge. This is why there are rules, that allow fursuiters to run around without a badge. That's why we protect their anonymity. I'm a bit offended by people that play the "medical issue card" on this problem, since nobody would ever even get to the idea to deny someone with a medical problem (overheating, dehydration, etc.) taking his head off in public.

All the complaints were about people taking their head off without any reason at all. If you have a medical problem, you don't sit down at the bar and get drunk. Also you don't walk into the restaurant and eat a full meal in a half pulled-down fursuit. Or smoke in fursuit. That's just not what the majority of our community accepts. At many conventions, this would be softly enforced to be honest. I don't see a reason for a written rule about this, but I also don't understand those few suiters that seem to think of this to be perfectly fine. If many of those I spend a convention with tell me, they don't want to see that in public, isn't it a bit arrogant to say "I don't give a f***"? Sure as hell it should make you think.

One of the suggestions regarding the reason for such a unusual large number was, that we had a lot of first timers, and since we live in a time in which every beginner can afford at least a simple fursuit, many walked around without any experience or background knowledge.

I think that might be part of the reason. All I can say is, that in all my years at conventions I've never seen so many headless suiters in public. (Without medical reason :p) And yes, that ruined a lot of photos and videos, because you may not care how you look without your head on, but most suiters do and their photos will be ruined if there are headless suiters in the background.

Last but not least: of course it's your choice what you do with your fursuit, but the furry community is based on the "we", and not on the ego of a few.


I can agree with so much of this, as well as the the more "magical" aspect, there are many practical pointers, and I'm glad someone can see them.

It's a relief that someone else has noticed the uncaring attitude of the headless suiters, I know we are a community of tolerance and diverse views, but there IS a whiff of a disregard for others in this.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Fairlight on June 05, 2013, 00:24:55
Yeah, my raccoon thing with the squeaker. ^.^

It gets philosophical quickly... what is OK and what is not. If I have a partial and take the head off.. is that OK, does this only ruin magic if there is a body suit? Just feet paws and tail is fine, many do that. Where is the borderline?

For me, it comes down to the body suit. Headless partials I'm more OK with than headless full suits. But is is a very subjective thing. That makes discussions so tricky...
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 05, 2013, 00:42:27
Due to the obligations of my role on this convention, I am forced to splitt my reply to this into two seperate parts.

First, I'll answer officially for the security of ConFuzzled:

There can not and will not be a written rule, that a fursuiter may not take off his head in public. However, since a large number of attendees (suiters an non-suiters) felt genuily disturbed by the unusually high amount of fursuiters we will focus more on this point during beginner-panels and most likely there will be a guideline for fursuiters hanging out in the headless-lounges. Thank you for keeping this discussion polite!


Now I'd like to state my personal opinion. The following does NOT represent the opinion of ConFuzzled ltd. or any convention department!

Back in the days, there was this unwritten rule, that fursuiters never take their head off in public. That's why the headless-lounge is called headless-lounge. This is why there are rules, that allow fursuiters to run around without a badge. That's why we protect their anonymity. I'm a bit offended by people that play the "medical issue card" on this problem, since nobody would ever even get to the idea to deny someone with a medical problem (overheating, dehydration, etc.) taking his head off in public.

All the complaints were about people taking their head off without any reason at all. If you have a medical problem, you don't sit down at the bar and get drunk. Also you don't walk into the restaurant and eat a full meal in a half pulled-down fursuit. Or smoke in fursuit. That's just not what the majority of our community accepts. At many conventions, this would be softly enforced to be honest. I don't see a reason for a written rule about this, but I also don't understand those few suiters that seem to think of this to be perfectly fine. If many of those I spend a convention with tell me, they don't want to see that in public, isn't it a bit arrogant to say "I don't give a f***"? Sure as hell it should make you think.

One of the suggestions regarding the reason for such a unusual large number was, that we had a lot of first timers, and since we live in a time in which every beginner can afford at least a simple fursuit, many walked around without any experience or background knowledge.

I think that might be part of the reason. All I can say is, that in all my years at conventions I've never seen so many headless suiters in public. (Without medical reason :p) And yes, that ruined a lot of photos and videos, because you may not care how you look without your head on, but most suiters do and their photos will be ruined if there are headless suiters in the background.

Last but not least: of course it's your choice what you do with your fursuit, but the furry community is based on the "we", and not on the ego of a few.

Dhary, your personal views pretty much match exactly my own.. The medical condition card is so lame and old... I don't recall anyone pulling heads off if in the parade, so why when standing around would it be harder.

I would be up for running a high detail fursuit panel for beginners or the inexperienced. If anything to highlight some courtesy to others and ways in which you can have fun in suit without having to not wear all of it.

I was personally out in suit almost every hour of the con, and I did not need to be half suited to eat, take it off and let it dry ect. Temperatures at the con were rather cool but I guess I do have many years of this kind of exposure to warmth in suit.
The, "we don't care" attitude to those who do give a damn is also very very ignorant, especially when you have people *out of the kindness of their heart* taking the time to photograph and video the fursuiters who do actually get it, it's actually very insulting.
Please understand that when I have a picture of my costume / character, I  do not want to see this kind stuff in the background as it ruins the entire point of costuming for me and others.
Again. My own words do not reflect that of Confuzzled.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: rocky_raccoon on June 05, 2013, 00:43:55
i absolutely agree with Dhary.

everything is personal choice - yes, but unwritten rules are there due to the majority feeling of the community - we have headless lounges for a reason. I have on times even said i would rather pass out than break character (though yes it sounds stupid and i would de-head if it got to that point - it conveys my particularly strong feelings for this particular topic.)

When we suit - we bring a character to life. For me, that is the entire point of 'suiting up' - we don't wear suits like some kind of sweater - its a character - and if, unnecessarily - you take your head off - you're breaking that character - and the character becomes insignificant - pointless, and effectively fake.

I know my safe limits, and - as i did last night, when i reach them, i head to my room - head on, and when the door is closed - i de-suit.

We are all entitled to our opinions - but as has been mentioned, the majority don't wish to see this to that degree. It was not especially hot this weekend, and it ruins many many photo opportunities and video shots  - spoiling opportunities for those who wish to be seen, and be recorded bringing their character to life.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 05, 2013, 00:52:49
I can say that I've never seen so many headless fursuiters before this edition of CfZ.  >:(

It was kinda depressing to be surrounded by headless people when you try to perform....and you may think it doesn't ruin the magic, but it's ruined tons of pics & videos rushes for sure.

About the weather : it was very windy and not very warm (unlike last year or any other con like Eurofurence in summer) and inside the venue it was VERY cold.
In few words, PERFECT conditions for fursuiting.

A lot of new fursuiters attended this year for sure, but before performing get some training or don't wear it. A fursuit is not a mandatory to attend to a furry convention.

Yes, I to was also upset to see this and for me it was the only dull point of the convention IMHO. I personally don't feel it is that difficult to respect others and depart the main areas when de heading.
I also took footage of the  con from a GoPro cam for some PR work as Brok.. Now I will have to spend extra time just cutting scenes and making them gel back together.

I would hate to see a professional, such as yourself lose interest in filming at ConFuzzled due to the actions of some people who are either ignorant or un experienced in this field.
The show must go on, I would rather crawl away than ruin that moment.

Thanks for you input Vector and bringing your camera equipment along.

Tender Paws.
(All views are that of my own and do not reflect that of ConFuzzled)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Dhary Montecore on June 05, 2013, 01:28:55
@Tenderpaws: If you'd be willing to do such a panel, please, by all means, contact delph :3
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 05, 2013, 02:02:41
@Tenderpaws: If you'd be willing to do such a panel, please, by all means, contact delph :3

Done and done! :)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: aurora on June 05, 2013, 02:11:05
I was just thinking:

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen Fursuit.  ;D

That's just me being silly.

As a first-timer last year I learned that the more physical activity you do while wearing a fursuit the quicker you overheat.

A gentle to moderate breeze outdoors gives better cooling than an electric fan indoors.

Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: rab on June 05, 2013, 09:08:25
I thinks my take on it is , yes there's no written rule - there's a written recommendation in the conbook's fursuiter guide page to not de-head in public areas, with both the main reasons listed - some people get upset by headlessness, and it spoils/looks odd in photos/video  - with the understandable exceptions for emergencies.

Perhaps , if you do choose to disregard this recommendation and dehead , do what you can not to bounce past an active camera or similar and keep it minimal - as Dhary mentioned . Popping it off to quick cooldown/waiting in lengthy queues etc , generally np , taking it off to lounge at the bar or feed place .. perhaps not so much ok .
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Vector on June 05, 2013, 09:41:19
I think Dhary got it right and I totally agree with him.

The most disturbing thing in the whole week is that female fursuiter, headless, eating in fursuit in the restaurant.

And we talk here about a 4 stars hotel/restaurant...  I think it's really insulting for the restaurant staff.

And also please respect your character : do not go to restaurant in fursuit and headless... That rule should be enforced next year, at least in the restaurant, especially if the convention shares the space with another con.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Amethyst on June 05, 2013, 10:27:04
I didn't take my head off, though I almost did when I heard a buzzing inside it ( D:) it turned out to just be my badge running against my fleece though.

Like Mangusu said; some people don't have rooms or where at other hotels. They can't get anywhere to change! I had this problem last year when I was attending only. I had to get half dressed in the toilets and walk to the fursuit lounge with Khaazbaars feet, legs and tail on, holding the rest of the suit.

If you find headless suits in your photos, either change your angle to get them out of frame, or ask them politely too move. Unless you're taking film, you'd only be moving them for a minute and they'd probably be ok with that. A lot of the people I saw go headless were outside and they kept to the benches and out of the way.

Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: yagfox on June 05, 2013, 10:29:36
I'm not sure it's as widespread as billed, I was pleading with people to take their heads off in the queue for the laser photoshoot if they felt at all uncomfortable, as we didn't want anyone passing out,  and by far the vast majority toughed it out! :)



Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Artic Steve on June 05, 2013, 10:44:17
Must admit, I had to re edit some videos I was working on last night because headless suiters could be seen. I think the only times I took mine off out of the headless lounge was in the corner of the Fursuit Fiasco and whilst queueing in the Laser Photoshoot. Was my first time ever in a suit and I surprised myself on how long I could last in it by Sunday.

My head has two fans near the ears which both extract. Air is sucked in through the mouth and it makes a massive difference.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Amethyst on June 05, 2013, 10:46:12
Hey video editors; why not stick some fursuit head censor-bars on the headless guys? xD
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Panthras on June 05, 2013, 13:16:26
At the end of the day, when suiting itt can get rather uncomfortable and warm sometimes, and there were moments when I had bandana slips down over my eyes, but if that happens you just take yourself to the side if its in a main performance area if you're too far from the lounge. I'm always conscious and wary of the fact that there will be people with cameras around, but as many have said already its a magic verses health situation, everyone is different in their approach mind you :)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Fairlight on June 05, 2013, 15:21:17
I think we're clear that health reasons are fine. But very few of the complaints about this year were health-related.

The issue seems to be the fursuiters who took their head off to have a chat and a beer while in public con areas.

Think of it like this: When fire-ants are in your pants, just stop the rants and take them off. But if you just drop, (not pants, not top), quite many folks will have a strop.

(Ok, that was the worst rhyming ever...) But yeah. Health reasons are fine, socializing reasons are what are questioned atm.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: tryst on June 05, 2013, 19:28:39
It's my opinion that, as the suits are private property of private individuals, they are within their rights to wear them however they please, within the bounds of common decency of course. Sure, it upsets some people seeing others wearing incomplete suits, but there's no mystery that there's anything other than a human being inside one. At least, there's no mystery to anyone over the age of six.

Yes, we should be talking about this. Yes, we could make said fursuiters aware of how we feel on the issue. No, we shouldn't be making rules; nothing beyond rule eight anyway.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Lazerus101 on June 05, 2013, 19:55:51
Well said Tryst. I pretty much agree with you on every point.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: RizzoRattie on June 06, 2013, 01:10:31
This is a thread that could go back and forth for a long time with personal opinion and regardless of which side of the fence I sit on, the simple facts are that there is not now nor will there be a written policy that people have to agree to, to NOT take their heads off.  This would be applying a very strict dress code which could both be very difficult to actually police, and also would be an incredible breach of personal choice of attendees. 

As per earlier replies, how people wish to represent themselves in their fursuits is entirely down to them.  Ultimately, it is their character, their property, and their right to choose.  I cannot even agree that this is a cultural difference as has been suggested as I often see headless suiters at EF, MFF, and FC, I think its more so a case of what impact it has on the inidividual and what we choose to see/not see and/or not comment on.

The one point I would make ultimately is that this year, as with last, it was very humid and muggy due to the rain followed by a heat wave.  This is certainly reason enough for anyone to take their heads off, and whilst it might 'ruin the magic', again irrespective of my own views on this break of character, the attendees health and well being, and right to socialise and have a good time, is the conventions primary concern.

Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Futureblocker on June 07, 2013, 00:13:48
It was my First Con, and I was unhappy to see some Fursuiters walking around without their heads on!

During the Fursuit Fiasco, I was glancing towards the refreshments and I saw Fursuiters taking their heads off.
There should be an area of the Room that should feature large Boards that are up to 6'6 in height - that way the fursuiters can take their heads off in private and have refreshments!
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Hawker-Blue on June 07, 2013, 10:40:39

During the Fursuit Fiasco, I was glancing towards the refreshments and I saw Fursuiters taking their heads off.
There should be an area of the Room that should feature large Boards that are up to 6'6 in height - that way the fursuiters can take their heads off in private and have refreshments!

Perhaps that's something worth considering. i assume it didn't come into the budget this year. As for taking our heads off during downtime in the fursuit Fiasco (i did) Its safe to say, after jumping around attempting to get on those chairs, or avoiding the little yellow balls of death, one was quite hot sweaty and in need of some headless air for thirty seconds, so its a wee different from the taking off in full public for a chat (not that I'm opposed to that either)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 07, 2013, 14:06:01
It was my First Con, and I was unhappy to see some Fursuiters walking around without their heads on!

During the Fursuit Fiasco, I was glancing towards the refreshments and I saw Fursuiters taking their heads off.
There should be an area of the Room that should feature large Boards that are up to 6'6 in height - that way the fursuiters can take their heads off in private and have refreshments!

Yes, this was a concern of mine and I also found myself having to lift my head off a bit which is something I don't do, as a rule. I will forward this to events so they can look into this for next year.

Many thanks!
Tender Paws.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Bezel on June 07, 2013, 14:08:26
If I recall, AC introduced a "screened off area" for suiters in the main hall - as the trek back to the nearest fursuit lounge was too far. I guess it all depends on the layout of the new hotel - who knows, there may be a lounge right next door :)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Kamuniak on June 07, 2013, 22:02:34
This thing... I thought there might be discussion about this since I've never seen so many headless fursuiters in any convention before. This is of course matter where no-one is right or wrong, but just have opinions. But personally I don't like it that there are people casually walking around in fursuits without their head on.

No need to mention that it is okay if there is emergency or health issue. Even okay if it is quick or random. But there was people who spent hours sitting in the bar or outside wearing headless fursuit. Or smoking in suit, isn't that dangerous or at least smell sticks to the fur? At sunday evening there was even group of headless suiters with "ruining the magic 2013" or similar signs taped on their chest or back. That is pretty much rubbing it to other people face already.

Like someone already mentioned, this have changed a lot during years. Only about 5 years ago if someone had to take head off for a moment, it was done quickly behind corner. Also this seems to be more UK thing. Not that I could compare to more than Eurofurence or Nordic Fuzz Con, but they don't seem to have this problem, at least not in this magnitude.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: yagfox on June 07, 2013, 22:48:26
From all the thousands I've seen so far. The issue of people without heads ruining photos doesn't seem very apparent.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Dhary Montecore on June 07, 2013, 22:50:29
From all the thousands I've seen so far. The issue of people without heads ruining photos doesn't seem very apparent.

Unfortunately even our official camera-man have problems cutting their material. Unfortunately you seem to wrong here :/
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 07, 2013, 23:06:07
From all the thousands I've seen so far. The issue of people without heads ruining photos doesn't seem very apparent.
Wish I could say it was an exaggeration, Yag. I have spent ages just splitting video with the headless folks in them.
If you look at my tweets from yesterday, you'll see what I am talking about. http://t.co/u5feepJINK

It must have been the rush hour or something :(

Tender Paws.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: yagfox on June 07, 2013, 23:08:33
From all the thousands I've seen so far. The issue of people without heads ruining photos doesn't seem very apparent.

Unfortunately even our official camera-man have problems cutting their material. Unfortunately you seem to wrong here :/

Sorry, not really understanding what you're saying there?  :)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: yagfox on June 07, 2013, 23:11:14
From all the thousands I've seen so far. The issue of people without heads ruining photos doesn't seem very apparent.
Wish I could say it was an exaggeration, Yag. I have spent ages just splitting video with the headless folks in them.
If you look at my tweets from yesterday, you'll see what I am talking about. http://t.co/u5feepJINK

It must have been the rush hour or something :(

Tender Paws.
[/quote

Not authorised to see that. But I was talking about photos rather than video, I haven't looked at any videos. I've been throuh several thousand of peoples photos, and can't say I'm seeing a lot og headless suiters. I'm guessing photos are probably set up and framed better than video is, as they're less dynamic.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: JessLyra on June 08, 2013, 09:31:21
Im one who has headless a lot due to
1. Waiting in queues is bloody hot
2. The bar ran out of straws and i was dying and needed that drink (water) NOW.
3. Due to certain people staying in the hotel this year i did not trust my suit being in the fursuit lounge, i changed in my room but as the zip is on the back and catches on the fur, i cant undo it, so ive had to find someone on the 1st floor to unzip me. Shouldnt have a problem with leaving Lyra in the lounge next year.
4. Its my first lenhthy time fursuiting properly and i am not used to the heat yet. Like after the parade. I took my head off in the hotel as i was heading back to my room.

So none of my beheading is deliberate. Im a first time fursuiter.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: ferret on June 08, 2013, 22:04:29
I'm not an appreciater of fursuits, so I don't really get this.  Fursuits don't spoil shots.  Partial fursuits don't spoil shots.  Human heads on fursuit bodies I'm told are bad.  But humans wandering around in the shot are apparently OK?  I would have thought they would be much worse.

I don't think I'll ever understand fursuiting. :o
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Athesis on June 09, 2013, 02:03:25
Im one who has headless a lot due to
1. Waiting in queues is bloody hot
2. The bar ran out of straws and i was dying and needed that drink (water) NOW.
3. Due to certain people staying in the hotel this year i did not trust my suit being in the fursuit lounge, i changed in my room but as the zip is on the back and catches on the fur, i cant undo it, so ive had to find someone on the 1st floor to unzip me. Shouldnt have a problem with leaving Lyra in the lounge next year.
4. Its my first lenhthy time fursuiting properly and i am not used to the heat yet. Like after the parade. I took my head off in the hotel as i was heading back to my room.

It is an Furry-Convention where everyone knows that there is an human being in that cosume. It is also not the problem to see someone from time to time someone without head (Back to room, searching for help getting on/off the suit etc.), it just was ... there was so many of them who does it for no reason and absolutely dosn't care about destroying anything.

Going outside this CFz made me from time to time a bit depressed and even angry. Setting up an rule to keep heads on might sound like an aggressive rule, but pleas them to keep heads on seems not to work.

I'm not an appreciater of fursuits, so I don't really get this.  Fursuits don't spoil shots.  Partial fursuits don't spoil shots.  Human heads on fursuit bodies I'm told are bad.  But humans wandering around in the shot are apparently OK?  I would have thought they would be much worse.

I don't think I'll ever understand fursuiting. :o

Humans are humans, they don't look incomplete xD
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: aurora on June 09, 2013, 02:20:54
Quote
3. Due to certain people staying in the hotel this year i did not trust my suit being in the fursuit lounge,

This year was the first time I left my head unattended in the fursuit lounge, everything was OK and it didn't get damaged or stolen.

There was nothing to hang fursuits on in the Rotunda lounge apart from the chairs, so I left my fursuit spread out on the bed in my room. It was only damp around the neck part.

Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 09, 2013, 02:25:23
I'm not an appreciater of fursuits, so I don't really get this.  Fursuits don't spoil shots.  Partial fursuits don't spoil shots.  Human heads on fursuit bodies I'm told are bad.  But humans wandering around in the shot are apparently OK?  I would have thought they would be much worse.

I don't think I'll ever understand fursuiting. :o

Think of it a bit like a puppet show. You try to keep heads and arms out of shot and you want the audience to see the character and not you.
It would be like if a few of the puppeteers for the heck of it just poking their heads or arms out. (This might annoy you and others for example)

From time to time it's a given, but the point brought up was that it seems to be many. I've spent ages editing a video and having to cut a few scenes out.
For me, costuming is about the magic and the character's integrity. (Bringing it to life) But it is largely down to everyone's own ideas ect.
No one has ever said, don't do it. But why would you have a nice suit and carry the head around.

Many Hugs!
Tender Paws!
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 09, 2013, 02:27:17
Quote
3. Due to certain people staying in the hotel this year i did not trust my suit being in the fursuit lounge,

This year was the first time I left my head unattended in the fursuit lounge, everything was OK and it didn't get damaged or stolen.

There was nothing to hang fursuits on in the Rotunda lounge apart from the chairs, so I left my fursuit spread out on the bed in my room. It was only damp around the neck part.



Ahh yeah, this is one of the reasons I bring a few fans with me, but of course, that depends on your transport arrangements too.
I tend to let mine dry overnight in my room.

Tender Paws.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Artic Steve on June 09, 2013, 12:44:32
 Must admit, there wasn't any straws in the Fursuit Fiasco ''fursuit'' corner. I'd have thought twice about deheading if there were straws as my head has surprisingly effective forced air cooling.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: SlyCat on June 09, 2013, 17:29:26
I posted my 2 pence on the subject on my LJ but it seems it mostly reflects the common sense already posted here :) http://slycat.livejournal.com/371167.html
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Cursico! on June 09, 2013, 18:00:29

Think of it a bit like a puppet show. You try to keep heads and arms out of shot and you want the audience to see the character and not you.
It would be like if a few of the puppeteers for the heck of it just poking their heads or arms out. (This might annoy you and others for example)


Avenue Q comes to mind right about now! xD
Quick, ignore the humans!
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: SlyCat on June 09, 2013, 18:16:47
I've a top tip for anyone who needs help into or out of suit as I do; make proper use of the fursuit lounge. I've not really done this before despite being a relative con veteran however what I did at Confuzzled was put on my undersuit in my room and then put regular clothes on top. Then head down to the fursuit lounge, get into suit and ask someone who's there (there's always someone there) to help zip you up and then go suiting. When it comes to a time when you want to pop your head off for air or water, head back to the fursuit lounge (you should know your own physical limits to not end up in a situation where you're about to pass out and have to remove the head as the lounge was never a huge walk away). If you then want to get out of suit, go back to the fursuit lounge, get some help unzipping, stick the suit on the epic drier of doom and put your regular clothes back on top of your now moist undersuit. Then get back to your room to remove the undersuit and shower :)
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 09, 2013, 18:21:02
I've a top tip for anyone who needs help into or out of suit as I do; make proper use of the fursuit lounge. I've not really done this before despite being a relative con veteran however what I did at Confuzzled was put on my undersuit in my room and then put regular clothes on top. Then head down to the fursuit lounge, get into suit and ask someone who's there (there's always someone there) to help zip you up and then go suiting. When it comes to a time when you want to pop your head off for air or water, head back to the fursuit lounge (you should know your own physical limits to not end up in a situation where you're about to pass out and have to remove the head as the lounge was never a huge walk away). If you then want to get out of suit, go back to the fursuit lounge, get some help unzipping, stick the suit on the epic drier of doom and put your regular clothes back on top of your now moist undersuit. Then get back to your room to remove the undersuit and shower :)
It is this amount of effort that people go to, to stay in character that makes me upset to see (I can't be bothered) suiters.

That is my heart felt feeling.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: SlyCat on June 09, 2013, 18:25:12
I've a top tip for anyone who needs help into or out of suit as I do; make proper use of the fursuit lounge. I've not really done this before despite being a relative con veteran however what I did at Confuzzled was put on my undersuit in my room and then put regular clothes on top. Then head down to the fursuit lounge, get into suit and ask someone who's there (there's always someone there) to help zip you up and then go suiting. When it comes to a time when you want to pop your head off for air or water, head back to the fursuit lounge (you should know your own physical limits to not end up in a situation where you're about to pass out and have to remove the head as the lounge was never a huge walk away). If you then want to get out of suit, go back to the fursuit lounge, get some help unzipping, stick the suit on the epic drier of doom and put your regular clothes back on top of your now moist undersuit. Then get back to your room to remove the undersuit and shower :)
It is this amount of effort that people go to, to stay in character that makes me upset to see (I can't be bothered) suiters.

That is my heart felt feeling.

The thing is, it doesn't feel like effort to me, it just feels like the logical thing to do! If I'm de-suiting in my room, I won't take the head off until I'm back at my room :D
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 09, 2013, 18:33:27


[/quote]
The thing is, it doesn't feel like effort to me, it just feels like the logical thing to do! If I'm de-suiting in my room, I won't take the head off until I'm back at my room :D
[/quote]

You nailed it. :)

Tender Paws
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Artic Steve on June 09, 2013, 20:02:19
I don't think this debate will ever end but if it was a case of 'social deheadding'' then that does need to be pointed out and stopped before it becomes a new ''thing''.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tenderpaws on June 09, 2013, 20:07:28
I don't think this debate will ever end but if it was a case of 'social deheadding'' then that does need to be pointed out and stopped before it becomes a new ''thing''.

Yup, precisely.
It's a hard subject to talk about, because it comes down to personal feelings ect.

If it became a thing, I would not want to be part of it.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Hawker-Blue on June 10, 2013, 10:59:07
I don't think this debate will ever end but if it was a case of 'social deheadding'' then that does need to be pointed out and stopped before it becomes a new ''thing''.

How do you stop someone who wants to take their head off to talk to that person they aint seen for a year?
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Dhary Montecore on June 10, 2013, 11:02:02
Well, if I haven't seen someone in years, I wouldn't just exchange a few words but want to talk for quite a while. And I wouldn't do that while suiting. So how about politely and friendly suggesting to the suiter to de-suit and then meet up in the bar or the suiters room? :3
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Lost Cause on June 11, 2013, 11:50:25
I don't think this debate will ever end but if it was a case of 'social deheadding'' then that does need to be pointed out and stopped before it becomes a new ''thing''.

Actualy the debate ended when Rizzo made this statement:
...the simple facts are that there is not now nor will there be a written policy that people have to agree to, to NOT take their heads off.  This would be applying a very strict dress code which could both be very difficult to actually police, and also would be an incredible breach of personal choice of attendees. 
snipped for length.

At this point people are just sharing their opinions which wont have any impact on policy at all.
and I seem to recall there have been pretty much identical threads in the past and those didn't have any impact either.
I can't help but wonder why people think fursuiters owe them something... Why should fursuiters sacrifice any aspect of their enjoyment in an event they payed to attend and got no special treatment just to spare someone elses seeing what is behind the mask?
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Dhary Montecore on June 11, 2013, 14:40:08
are just sharing their opinions which wont have any impact on policy at all.
and I seem to recall there have been pretty much identical threads in the past and those didn't have any impact either.
I can't help but wonder why people think fursuiters owe them something... Why should fursuiters sacrifice any aspect of their enjoyment in an event they payed to attend and got no special treatment just to spare someone elses seeing what is behind the mask?

Because: If you want to be a respected member of a community, you should follow the code of conduct of that community, shouldn't you? If you annoy 200 attendees, just because you chose to ignore something that is seen as common courtesy you can't complain if people will tell you their opinion about it.

And fursuiters owing others something? That is a dangerous discussion and I agree, that of course no fursuiter owes the other attendees anything. But did you ever think of the thousands of euro/pound/whatever that are paid by ALL attendees to offer fursuiters the rent for their lounge, their special treatment, highly expensive custom driers, the power to run them, free drinks and snacks and all the events, just for fursuiters?

If you start counting pennies over an issue that is solvable by common courtesy in our community, then others could argue that way as well. :3



NOTE: This is my PERSONAL opinion. It is NOT any opinion of ConFuzzled ltd. or anything official.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Tungro on June 11, 2013, 14:57:40
Again, my personal opinion, not a CF opinion...

I see this the same way as holding a door open for someone. It's polite, it makes people happy. It's not necessarily a social norm. But it's also not mandatory.

Just like holding a door open for someone about to come through it, as a suiter I'd keep my head on until I'm out of the way. I CAN take my head off. I CAN let the door close. I choose not to.

Likewise, I also cannot expect everyone to hold open the door if I'm about to pass through. I'm glad when they do, but if they don't, I'm not going to kick up a fuss. Similarly, if a suiter walks around with their head off, I presume it's for a reason. I may prefer it if they had kept their head on but I'm not going to tell them off for doing so.

So, in short. I'd like to see people holding doors open for me. I'd like to see fursuiters with their heads on. I hold doors open for others about to come through. I keep my fursuit head on. I don't expect people to hold doors open for me. I don't expect fursuiters to always wear their heads.
Title: Re: Headless Fursuiters...
Post by: Matt the Lion on June 11, 2013, 17:31:04
I'm afraid that I'm going to put a stop to this thread at this point.

My reason for this is because I feel that the topic has moved well beyond the realms of feedback regarding the convention and I cannot see that it will reach any form of conclusion, the debate will continue to circle until the end of time.

Apologies to those who feel strongly about this topic (on either side) who wish to discuss this, but I'm believe this is a matter beyond the scope of the ConFuzzled forums.